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Thu
May 15 2008

Britain's most pointless car?

John McIlroy

I grabbed the keys to a Citroën C5 last night; I’ve been impressed by the looks of and, to a certain extent, the approach behind the French firm’s latest saloon, so I was keen to sample it for myself.

If anything, I’d hoped that a spell behind the wheel might allow me to see past Citroën’s ludicrous marketing campaign for the C5. In case you’ve missed the television commercial – and if you watch F1 on ITV then you’ll struggle to do that – it shows a tiresome man displaying lots of Germanic traits that generally irk Britons, then tells us that the C5 is unmistakeably German (as if this would be a positive), then points out that it is, of course, French.

It’s as if some Citroën marketer piped up, “Of course! The reason British BMW and Merc drivers have forked out their hard-earned on those brands is because the cars are built between knockwurst lunches by sword-fighting Bavarians!” (An alternative view being that it’s because they are better engineered, more reliable and hold their value more effectively.)

Anyway, I digress. The C5 in question was a 2.7 HDI Exclusive, effectively the range-topper with a V6 diesel engine. It costs, wait for it, £24,395 – which makes it, I believe, one of the most pointless cars on sale in the UK today.

Now, put aside for a second the fact that the Mondeo outshines the C5 in almost every area of dynamics (except, perhaps, ride quality). Fact is, you don’t even need to look beyond the C5’s own range to find a car that renders the 2.7 HDi irrelevant. It’s called the 2.2 HDi, it costs precisely £3000 less, wants for precious little on the spec sheet, emits 51g/km less of CO2 and manages 9.9mpg more on a combined cycle.

Alas, it is a whole 3mph slower in terms of top speed and the 2.7-litre model will have raced a whole 0.4sec clear in a dash from 0-62mph. But I’d live with it. Or rather, I’d give it a second glance before committing to a Mondeo 2.2 TDCi.

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About John McIlroy

Used to report on the WRC for Autosport magazine; jumped to Autocar in '05. Career high? Driving McRae's Ford Focus WRC. Career low? Crashing McRae's Ford Focus WRC.

Comments

julianphillips May 15, 2008 11:50 AM

Britain's most pointless article?

I'm not in the market for a C5 of any specification, but having driven both I would probably take the Citroen.  I also happen to think its a great advertising campaign, maybe not to someone in his fifties (apologies if I'm incorrect on the age, just going by the picture above) but to someone who has grown up with the increasing dominance of the German brands in the upper-medium/small exec sector, due in no small part to perceived quality and image, the advertising very clearly illustrates the fact that Citroen quality is also very good.

On the 'pointless' issue:  Have heard all this before, and it could - and often is - be applied to many top-of-the range cars, especially non-premium ones.  For example, Vectra V6, 407 V6 petrol and diesel, 2.5 litre Mondeo, 300C V6 petrol, BLS V6, etc.  

The reality is that with heavy discounting you can get the top end modle at a price that reflects a far more reasonable premium over the list price of the next model down in the range.  A quick call to a dealer in North Surrey which took less than 4 minutes resulted in an instant £1,000 drop and a tank of free petrol (albeit with a very long delivery date), no doubt there are greater discounts to be negotiated.  As far as 0-60 goes, who cares.  My Volvo is barely any faster 0-60 than the next engine down the range, but 50-70 and 30-50 it is noticeably stronger, and it is also noticeably more refined.  These aspects should be taken into account when looking at the 2.7HDI versus the 2.2, not just outright 0-60 times and top speed.  I drove the 2.7 diesel in the Peugeot 407 Coupe and thought it was great and extremely refined, I assume it is the same as used in the C5.  The only instance I can think of where the top-end engine in a range has been particularly undesirable was the D5 diesel Volvo engine as fitted to the V50 and V70, purely because it is so noisy.

somethingmissing May 15, 2008 2:27 PM

But Mr. McIlroy, you were not in the target audience for that Citroen ad, since it's aimed at people whose senses of humour haven't yet completely atrophied and dropped off.

JJBoxster May 15, 2008 3:21 PM

A "pointless car" would technically be one that doesn't go A to B.

I think what J.Mc is reffering to is probably the marketing campaign of linking a French car with German brand and engineering success. He has a point about the spin as a Citroen doesn't match up on either count to be frank.

J.Mc likes the car and rates it a good alternative in comparison to a Mondeo so maybe all he needs to do is work on his spin -headlines.

julianphillips May 15, 2008 3:35 PM

Agreed to a point, although I think the quality is probably there in terms of relaibility for manufacturers like Citroen, but not there in terms of perception and 'feel'.  I still feel BMW is leagues ahead in terms of general feelgood factor when you sit in any of their range, from the most poverty spec 116i upwards.

However, the article above was mainly concentrating on the merits - or lack of - of buying the top-of-the range 2.7 variant.  My point is that it needn't be the 'irrelevant' vehicle that McIlroy thinks it is.  I'd take it over the Mondeo any day of the week for emotive reasons.  

John McIlroy May 15, 2008 5:35 PM

Er, I was the 34, the last time I looked, although my musical tastes are slightly older than they should be...

Julian, do you seriously think that the advertising illustrates that Citroen quality is very good? If so, how? It's either a joke (in which case, yes, somethingmissing, I don't get it) or a serious attempt to suggest that the C5 is German and therefore well built, efficient and likely to hold its value well. Erm.

theoriginalshoe May 15, 2008 6:23 PM

I'm with you John.  Stupid advertising, unnecessary car.

loather May 15, 2008 6:48 PM

Can't agree Mr McIlroy. The Citroen C5 advert is great. The girl, flleetingly shown with a cape, on a horse?, is stunning - worth watching for alone. The music, Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries, is wonderful. If that doesn't stir you, your heart's stopped beating. The whole imagery is superb. About the only light, life-enhancing? advert on the box.

To the car. Aren't these diesels shared, been jointly-developed with Ford? Isn't the HDi 2.7 the same twin-turbo(one per bank) unit in the Jaguar XK? Hasn't that engine been lauded by this magazine amongst many others since launch, especially for its class-leading smoothness and quietness?  However, it is now being outgunned by the latest BMW/Audi/Merc 3 litre plus twin-turbo, 3rd/4th generation common rail etc ueber-diesels, and being squeezed from below by increasingly powerful 4 cyl. units like the in-house 2.2 Ford/PSA 175 hp variety.

loather May 15, 2008 6:56 PM

"MPs condemn Citroen C5 advert for Nazi imagery"

motortorque.askaprice.com/.../mps-condemn-citroen-c5-advert-for-nazi-imagery.asp

The country's going to the dogs and some Scottish MP's got the time to condemn an 'evil' car advert by a French company that harks back to the 1930s? Jesus, these clowns haver got way too much time on their hands.

John McIlroy May 15, 2008 6:58 PM

I don't deny that Ride of the Valkyries is a terrific piece of music. I just don't see what it's got to do with a French car...

julianphillips May 15, 2008 7:35 PM

"...a serious attempt to suggest that the C5 is German and therefore well built, efficient and likely to hold its value well. Erm."

John - Erm it is well built, very well built in fact.  On the efficiency side, not sure what you mean but it is certainly econmical in all senses of the word - as a car in diesel guise and as an economical model for Citroen's finances:  Although I currently work in the heavy duty US truck component market, I have worked on Euro projects with several of the automotive components suppliers who were involved in the C5 - Johnson Controls, Behr, Bosch and ArvinMeritor - and I can tell you that it was built to raise credibility as a rival to the German brands WHILST also saving costs on the component side.  Certainly from the industry side of the market it is regarded as a high quality product.  Perhaps the advert will help to persuade the car buying public of this as well.

As far as holding its value, maybe not compared to list price, but as I implied earlier - and your friend at Autocar Mr Ruppert may agree (hopefully) - the list price is totally irrelevant.  The real retained value that a car like this will hold is in fact very strong, at least expressed as a percentage which is what CAP and Glass's would have you believe is all important, because it is likely to be so heavily discounted at the front end.  This is why it is cheaper for me to choose a C5 over a similarly priced/engined/specced Mondeo as a company car, because the depreciation is minimal thanks to a lower front end cost and the RV isn't all that different from the Ford.  This applies to corporate or private buyers, so I would say it does hold its value well.  This is ignoring the fact that it is massively better than its predecessor and this may result in a stronger RV than the low-ish one that CAP and Glass's have predicted.

julianphillips May 15, 2008 7:56 PM

www.ae-plus.com/.../cc-Citroen-news14.htm

Might be of interest; although it doesn't prove that the C5 is a good car.

Sibbo May 15, 2008 9:08 PM

The fact they need to imply it is German is damning and says it all. French cars are badly screwed together, and fall apart easily. My father in law's 4 year old Laguna is a fine example. Bits were falling off it as soon as it left the showroom.

I would never put any of my hard-earned into anything with 4 wheels which is made by the French or Italians (unless they live in Modena, but then there isn't enough hard-earned for that).

ThwartedEfforts May 15, 2008 11:59 PM

Citroen has a boggling array of cars in the 'B' CO2 category (i.e. taxed at just £35 per year), so it's not as though the company hasn't got its eco-act together.

Primarily the C5 2.2 is a four-banger manual. That means if you really want a six cylinder auto with which to hoof it up and down the country and continent, the 2.7 litre - pref. in Tourer form - is the one that fits the bill. It's a very large, soothing, quiet car, and a very large, soothing, quiet engine is the perfect accompaniment to it. You can chip it to 250bhp if that's what you feel you need, and come on, it's not as though it's diesel debauchery anyway - it returns over 40mpg on a run.

The Mondeo is a nice car but very dull. It's also very dull to see it presented as the default choice in this sector over and over again, when car buying is so often about what your heart tells you to do. A motoring hack should understand why more than just a few people will be actively seeking a Citroen instead of the Ford - perhaps even a pointless one with two extra cylinders.

And sure, while the French company's advertising is a bit odd (to say the very least), you're the one giving them the repeat marketing they crave...

John McIlroy May 16, 2008 9:30 AM

Julian,

You're missing my point slightly. It's not whether the Citroen is a well built car or not (it felt solid enough to me, yes); it's the fact that someone in the marketing department believes this 'association' with German traits will persuade the general public that it is well built...

As for resale, in 18 months' time it'll be a bargain...

John

julianphillips May 16, 2008 10:05 AM

I see what you mean.  But when you see Sibbo's post above, where he says "French cars are badly screwed together, and fall apart easily", you can understand why Citroen want to build up this association!!

Apologies for the "fifties" remark in my first post.  

John McIlroy May 16, 2008 11:18 AM

I don't think the C5 is any more poorly screwed together than a Mondeo, really. It's not as involving a drive, though - and I was disappointed that elements that I'd consider safe ground for Citroen, such as ride quality, weren't as accomplished as I'd expected. The car suffered particularly badly from tyre/road noise.

As for your age comment, it has resulted in much amusement in the office, I can tell you... :-D

John

John McIlroy May 16, 2008 11:19 AM

Oh, and you do have a point about in-gear acceleration. I haven't checked but I'm sure the 2.7 does have an extra wallop of torque to help in this area over the 2.2. Whether or not it's worth shelling out an extra few grand for this is another matter...

John

ThwartedEfforts May 16, 2008 11:49 AM

The 2.7 litre C5 has 18-inch wheels - your press car may even have had 19s for a photo shoot - whereas the rest of the range has more ordinary 16s and 17s. That is the cause of the added road noise, and the reason it's so noticeable is only because the rest of the car is so quiet. It's not like the C5 is worse than any rival shod with the same rubber, is it?

Most of us have at one time or another bounced along in borderline discomfort in an Audi or BMW with rubber bands for tyres, and it's no fun at all on today's roads. Your mini-review has moved on from labelling the car as pointless, to scoffing at the marketing and complaints about iffy ride quality, and now you're telling us it's noisy? Not sure about anyone else, but I'm beginning to not believe you.

scook2003 May 16, 2008 12:03 PM

The fact that the French are trying to sell it as being German says it all really doesnt it?

scook2003 May 16, 2008 12:07 PM

John McIlroy May 16, 2008 11:18 AM

I don't think the C5 is any more poorly screwed together than a Mondeo, really.

---------

John if you look at the quality of the two products Ford are leaps and bounds ahead, recently they have excelled in this.

You need to look at industry data for TGW or things gone wrong and look at the spend on warranty.  You will find Ford near the top nearer to Honda and Toyota and you will find the majority of French firms down the bottom.

ThwartedEfforts May 16, 2008 2:06 PM

The Warranty Holdings repair survey ranks Citroen as the fifth cheapest of all listed manufacturers, and eighth overall for reliability. The company is ahead of the Germans on all counts.

According to the other sources you cite, the least reliable manufacturer is Land Rover which, until very recently, were part of Ford.

No, I don't want a Mondeo!

scook2003 May 16, 2008 3:07 PM

The Warranty Holdings repair survey ranks Citroen as the fifth cheapest of all listed manufacturers, and eighth overall for reliability. The company is ahead of the Germans on all counts.

According to the other sources you cite, the least reliable manufacturer is Land Rover which, until very recently, were part of Ford.

---------------------------

Cheapest to repair, well I guess thats an advantage but I would prefer one that doesnt break in the first place.

www.whatcar.com/.../7588125111.jpg

Shame you had to mention LR when we are talking Ford, guess you couldnt find any other information?

However as you did, you can see from (link) above LandRover although unreliable are more so than Citeron, this is 2008 data. As you can see all the French makes down the bottom as I said.

Its true that the older population would probably prefer the Citroen, no offence but im guessing your 50+? It does have the more comfy less dynamic feel about it.

For anyone who appreciates a dynamic drivers car all reviews would point towards the Mondeo, in fact its been rated better than the BMW for quality and its handling.

ThwartedEfforts May 17, 2008 11:25 AM

Oh here we go. What you were talking about was repair costs and reliability. You said, and I quote:

"You will find Ford near the top nearer to Honda and Toyota and you will find the majority of French firms down the bottom."

A customer satisfaction survey of buyers who volunteer information about the ownership experience is not going to make you less wrong. As I said, Citroen are cheaper to repair and more reliable than the German makes. Whether Citroen owners are happy with Citroen dealers is another matter entirely, and certainly no reflection on the company's engineering.

Look closer at the chart you posted. Why do the top names - Lexus, Skoda, Toyota, Honda - send me to sleep? Why do makers such as Audi, BMW and Porsche - whose products are not only less reliable but also more expensive to repair - have happy owners? It's hardly a science.

It's also not as though there's a massive variance in the scoring: 77% at one end, 86% at the other. If you're going to base a decision or argument on a 9% variance in a JD Power questionnaire then something as exciting and unique as a Mondeo is probably the perfect partner for you!

julianphillips May 17, 2008 8:10 PM

That's a great response, ThwartedEfforts!

The "dynamic" argument I think is a suspect one that is applied to virtually all Fords since the original Focus.  I don't think that the Mondeo will be any more dynamic than the C5 other than at extremes that you would be silly to attempt to experience on a public road.  Anyway, I'm not entirely convinced that all Fords are as dynamic as the UK press regularly reiterate.  Case in point, the latest Fiat Bravo:  I'd rate it above the Focus dynamically and it also is significantly more comfortable on UK roads, especially over the speed humps that blight seemingly every road near where I live.  However, I seem to remember Autocar and others giving it a bit of a thumbs down in the dynamism stakes, putting the Focus head and shoulders above it.  This view is certainly not reflected uniformly across the rest of European motoring press.  (Actually I think the Astra strikes the best balance between dynamism and comfort).

Mr.Pickle May 18, 2008 9:38 PM

Unmistakeably German.. Built in France.

broken down in Britain.

ThwartedEfforts May 19, 2008 8:56 AM

YouTube's that way ---->

A R Chen June 24, 2008 9:14 AM

I like the Citroen C5 and think it far more desirable than the Mondeo.  A car that can soothe you when you need it, but perform capably when you need it to is actually rather appealing.  But this is down to personal tastes and priorities.

Your attack on the advertising concept is ill-advised which is why you will stay a motoring hack rather than excel in the world of marketing or for that matter, product development.

Citroen's main business is to sell cars and make a profit at it.  The last C5 was dull by any standards and if anything, a liability to the marque's image.

If by emphasizing certain German trademark qualities, Citroen is able to get punters to give the new C5 a second look instead of opting for the default Germans, then this entire campaign would already be considered a success.

Not so long ago, Toyota set out to launch a completely new prestige marque names Lexus.  The first flagship LS400 and the following generation LS430 unashamedly copied the Mercedes S-Class so closely that you could superimpose the side view of one against the other and it would become ONE!

Which marque did Lexus use for a benchmark in terms of quality, longevity and perceived quality?  Mercedes-Benz.

Who knows, maybe there might be a couple of manufacturers like Ford or Vauxhall that could start an ad campaign about being British but boasting Japanese reliability!

And one more thing - where do you think the motoring public hears the most raves about German cars?  Right here in your maagazine.  I love German cars myself and own a Mercedes.  So maybe Citroen's ad campaign is indeed on the right track!

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