Autocar - First for car news and reviews

Advertisement

Top bloggers

Advertisement

Wed
Apr 23 2008

Fighting the greenwash

Matt Saunders

I’m confused, not to mention being more than a bit frustrated. Why is it that as soon as the world’s automotive industry does as every card-holding greenie in the world wants, and begins to commit to strategies to reduce the carbon emissions associated with the 40 million new vehicles it produces every year, those same so-called climate champions simply find something else to whinge about?

I’ve just been reading a pathetic article about the Chevrolet Volt – the car that will become General Motors’ first ‘plug-in hybrid’. This dross suggested that the car simply didn’t matter; that its contribution to climate change would be minuscule while coal fuel power stations still existed. Rubbish.

Earlier this morning, I read that GM chief Rick Wagoner recently had to defend his strategy to make the use of biofuel more widespread throughout the company’s models. People have been blaming the car industry’s adoption of ethanol for the global hike in food prices. So the car is not only responsible for choking our grandchildren; it’s now starving displaced millions in the third world. It’s a wonder we don’t all sell up and become hermits.

What is it about the mindset of these car-haters that prevents them from playing an active, reasonable and constructive part of the process of making the car acceptable in the 21st century?

Here are a few more grounded realities, as far as I understand them. When it becomes available in Britain sometime around 2011, the Chevrolet Volt will be able to do 40 miles without burning a single drop of petrol. If I get one, that means I’ll be able to drive it to work and back without producing any emissions of any kind, provided I charge it every night. I will need to fuel it only for longer-run weekend trips. In a typical month, I reckon that’ll save me three out of five trips to the pump. How can anyone argue that won’t reduce carbon emissions?

Charging your car from the mains rather than filling it from the pump puts greater overnight load on the country’s idling power stations, granted, but coal-fired power stations can be adapted for a lower carbon footprint. Better still, electricity can be generated without the production of any CO2 at all. And if your power comes from a renewable source, then it’s not just your car that’s emissions-free; it’s your microwave, your TV, and your iPod too.

The same argument stands up in the debate about biofuel, as far as I’m concerned. If the ethanol’s made the ‘cellulosic’ way, using biomass that would otherwise rot away or go to waste, then it’s not forcing up food prices as it’s not being produced at the expense of anything else. If we use switchgrass, a perennial of many of the world’s prairies and savannahs, we can make twice as much ethanol per kilo as we would from corn anyway.

No: both plug-in hybrid technology and biofuel combustion stand to markedly reduce the quantity of carbon dioxide emitted by cars – there’s just no arguing with it. Both are important. Both matter. And we should get behind any car-maker who adopts either of them. Rant over.

Sign-in or register to add your comments

About Matt Saunders

Career started in a mk III Jaguar that conveyed him home from the maternity ward. At Autocar since 2003, he says he's enjoyed every minute - especially the hairy ones.

Comments

loather April 23, 2008 4:17 PM

Matt, have you been drinking the ethanol rather than filling your car's tank with it?

"Better still, electricity can be generated without the production of any CO2 at all." How? With windmills? And what the hell is wrong with CO2? Haven't you heard the CO2 MMGW thing is sooo 2007. Even Nigel Lawson is writing that it's a scam. Dear God!

As to your electric car CO2-less orgasm the Volt has a 16kWh battery pack. Recharging will be only 50% of capacity though, so GM claims 3 hours charging time at 3.3kW(220V). So say 10kWh of energy per car, per charge, per night. Say there is a 1,000,000 of them or less than 5% of all vehicles. That's a demand of 3.3GW electricity generation for 3 hours minimum each night. That's 3 and a bit nuclear power stations, or several coal-fired power stations. Where is this extra electricity supposed to come from, with the leadtime for a nuclear power station from wish to completion of 10-15 years? Coal-fired? Impossible - you carbon fundies won't have it. Windmills? At night? Mid-winter? Anti-cyclone cold spell - no wind, low temps., high demand for heating? Get real sunshine! With a 1MW rated turbine producing 250kW effective at best you would need more than 13,000 'mills to supply this 1m electric vehicle nightime charging demand. And when there's no wind - back to coal and gas-fired stations - brilliant.

JJBoxster April 23, 2008 7:47 PM

I have to agree with the greens (for once) that a hybrid "didn’t matter; that its contribution to climate change would be minuscule while coal fuel power stations still existed."

They just forgot to do the maths and the science in their calculations that mans entire emissions (vehicles, power stations, household oil and breathing) ALL makes no difference to CO2 levels - I'll post the maths later (late) tonight in the 'Climate Con' topic on how the IPCC and the green have their maths f*ked up.

In short CO2 levels are completely natural and mans contribution to current 380ppm levels is irrelevant.

One final point. Electricity cars or hybrids aren't any more efficient than petrol or diesel when all costs are calculated. Renewable sources currently account for less than 1% of Britains electricity. Chances or wind, wave and solar accounting for more than 2 or 3% in the next 10yrs is very slim.

And the new London Electric Taxi at 4p a mile ignores there's 300% tax on fuel and next to nothing on electricity. Try slapping 300% tax on electricity then do the maths if you want a real comparison. Oil thrashes any other energy for transport fuel without breaking sweat. It's a no brainer.

loather April 24, 2008 8:56 AM

Matt mate, have you really thought this through or are you just jumping on a bandwagon - electrically powered of course.

You want to 'save the world' with eliminating nasty CO2 emissions from coventional I.C. engined cars so that we don't heat up and drown under rising seas and melting ice caps, but it appears that you have forgotten that in the process you may just condemn us all to dying from thirst first. Oh the merry, stupid, scientifically-illiterate 'eco-warriors' - don't ya just luv 'em!

see: 'Plug-In Hybrids Use Over 17 Times More Water Than Regular Cars, Researchers Say'

gas2.org/.../plug-in-hybrids-use-over-17-times-more-water-than-regular-cars-researchers-say

and with regard to your PHEVs needing more electricity generating capacity - from what? - coal, gas, oil? - see the following:

'Plug-In Hybrids Could Require 160 New Power Plants By 2030 (Or None At All)'

gas2.org/.../plug-in-hybrids-may-require-160-new-power-plants-by-2030-or-none-at-all

ThwartedEfforts April 24, 2008 1:04 PM

[quote]This dross suggested that the car simply didn’t matter; that its contribution to climate change would be minuscule while coal fuel power stations still existed. Rubbish.[/quote]

Oh come on. There are eight million cars sold EVERY YEAR in North America alone! Who honestly thinks a single niche model is going to make even a tiny supermarket ding on the door or climate change?

ThwartedEfforts April 24, 2008 1:06 PM

I should have guessed... you can't use [quote]

[i]Italic[/i] [b]Bold[/b]

Be nice to have some instructions here, or better still some continuity with the editing of forum posts. Fat chance though.

loather April 24, 2008 1:17 PM

TE, I don't know what you're on about or who you're addressing, but out of that nonsense I did make out a 'fact' that:

"There are eight million cars sold EVERY YEAR in North America alone!" TE

That'll be news to GM, Toyota, Ford, Chysler, Honda etc.. Even last year, 2007, one of the worst for more than 20 years in the US - not inclusing Canada - there were about 16 million passenger vehicles sold.

Better tell one of the Big Three, according to oracle TE they're out of business. Now back to the real world...

JJBoxster April 24, 2008 4:04 PM

If you removed all the cars on the planet tomorrow it wouldn't make one iota difference to world CO2 levels. Cars contribution to global CO2 levels are statistically irrelevant. And hybrids or electricity cars, trading down from big thirsty cars to small sippers makes no difference whatsoever.

We're being whipped and bullied by politicians with soggy wet toilet paper that's falling apart. Taxed on CO2 emissions for no good reason, for no SANE reason any sane clued-up scientist would endorse.

Matt Saunders April 25, 2008 9:40 AM

Loather,

As I understand it, the UK National Grid has more than 180 power stations in it, and a peak capacity of just under 80GW - very little of which is used overnight. By your figures, that means we could fully charge more than 20 million Volts without needing to build one extra power plant.

I accept the point about well-to-wheel emissions, but the maths prove that energy generated from a renewable source, and then expended in an electric car, comes with much less associated CO2 than that which is refined from oil, transported to a filling station, and then burned in a combustion engine. You just can't argue with that.

Whether carbon emissions are something we should be focussing on, and whether your car's contribution to them matters as much as that associated with the house you live in, or the food you buy, is a different discussion. But for every article I read challenging the accepted logic of global warming, there are ten that reaffirm it. And I could line up a panel of ten motor industry experts who will tell you that carbon matters, even though it's not in their interests to do so.

scook2003 April 25, 2008 11:12 AM

The greens are not about green, they didnt priase MR Branson for trying to lower emmisions on planes and they wont praise carmakers.

They are not concerned with facts and figures, they are not bothered about Co2.

Lets face it they will only be happy when no cars are on the road and no planes are in the sky we all ride on bikes wear sandals and are all equally paid. And even then they will have to find some reason to exist as an entity so they will find something else to concentrate on.

I say bring back nuclear power and nuclear bombs or at least say we have them, that will give them something else to concentrate on and protest about.

scook2003 April 25, 2008 3:12 PM

"I accept the point about well-to-wheel emissions, but the maths prove that energy generated from a renewable source, and then expended in an electric car, comes with much less associated CO2"

If we all changed to electric how would we dispose of the batterys in the future? Wouldnt this cause more than just Co2 pollution?

loather April 25, 2008 4:08 PM

@Matt Saunders April 25, 2008 9:40 AM

Please be more precise.  You believe in GW(global warming) and you back this up by saying you read GW-affirming to GW-denying articles on a 10:1 basis. So? That proves you have a high penchant for GW-affirming articles - QED. Are you a trained scientist or a sheep?

GW is not in question; the precise matter in question is MMGW(manmade GW). Earth has always cycled markedly in its temps. You are obviously a 'believer' whose conviction will not be shaken until you have no more subs. from readers as they are stoney-broke due to 'green' taxes. Only once you have lost your current-orthodoxy spouting sinecure will you wake up to the politics/non-science of the MMGW cult thing.

Now, as to the GM Volt and all PHEVs, I ask once again, just where is this electricity to come from? You say there's ample spare at night from the installed 80GW/180 PSs capacity - by the way I think it's less as the ten current nuclear plants in UK represent about 20% of total gen. capacity and they are rated at about 1GW each and there are about 100 main powerstations only. However, the majority of current gen. capacity in the UK is from fossil fuel burning - coal, gas and oil - followed by nuclear. So you do realise that your nightime electricty is from CO2 producing fossil-fuels? Please answer, yes or no, that'll suffice.

Your 'renewable' amount is no less than 5% currently and is not expected to be greater than 10% by 2015. So once again, in mid-winter, during an anti-cyclonic cold spell, no wind, no windmill power generation, where will your electricity for your PHEV come from? That's all I want to know from you.

loather April 25, 2008 4:12 PM

correction to last para. in above. Should read:

Your 'renewable' amount is less than 5% currently and is not expected to be greater than 10% by 2015.

Matt Saunders April 26, 2008 10:02 AM

The power comes largely from fossil fuel burning power stations. I never suggested otherwise. The point with battery cars is that, even with that being the case, they're still much lower on well-to-wheel emissions than the most frugal IC cars. Don't forget that refining petrol and diesel has its associated emissions too.

Cars like the Volt will allow us not only tor reduce our carbon emissions, but to concentrate them much more locally, at the point where our power is generated. Once you've done that, there are ways to produce the same amount of power while emitting less CO2, from a coal fuel or gas burning power plant. It's called carbon capture. Google it.

Longer term, I believe solar power is the answer to our generation problems. I've read that there is more energy in a square metre of sunlight than there is in a nuclear reactor. We just need to develop the means to harvest it cheaply enough.

Hydrogen is only half relevant: most cars will have a long enough range on battery power alone in 10 years or so, with the rate that lithium ion is developing. It's only your proper 4x4s and long-distance cruisers that will need on-board fuel cells, ultimately.

Think about it. Battery technology now allows us to take the majority of cars out of the carbon equation completely. The energy they use will be part of it, granted, but so will the energy used by your home. That's exactly how it should be. How can that not make sense to people?

loather April 26, 2008 10:43 AM

"I've read that there is more energy in a square metre of sunlight than there is in a nuclear reactor."  M.Saunders

Mate, you're an idiot, and I'm wasting my time here. Go look up some figures and get an education before it's too late. Jesus, what qualifications do you need these days to be a scribber on a car mag - ostensibly a technically-based subject? What age are you? If anyone older than 10/11, especially a lad, came out with what you have so far I'd be shocked and stupefied to say the least.

For the record pal, the power of sunlight is about 1400W/m2 at the top of the earth's atmosphere.Of that a solar panel can at best convert 40% to usable power. A typical UK, current nuclear powerstation has a generating capacity of c. 1GW, which given a thermal efficiency of no more than 40-45% means that the nuclear reaction is kicking out just over 2GW. Now unless I'm badly mistaken 2GW is about a 1,000,000 times greater than power of sunlight per square metre falling on the earth. If it weren't, and was as you say above, we and everything on the earth would be incinerated in an instant - much like Mercury but worse - get the picture.

I'm afraid that you just confirm in my mind the typical profile of a MMGW believer and carbon as enemy of the earth dupe. Yes you've got some power now through your organ to dupe other idiots, but most thinking people have long woken up and are just ready to take the greenies and their arguments apart. The coming economic depression will be no place for lily-livered treehuggers to spout their nonsense. Folk will want, heat, light, fuel and food to stay alive and to hell with the Green totalitarian yoke hung round their necks by the elite.

JJBoxster May 9, 2008 2:27 AM

Loather, I'd say your figures for Nuclear versus Matts 1 sq meter of solar power are conservative. The only way to make electricity without a carbon footprint is Nuclear. Solar, wind and tidal combined wouldn't push a fleet of shopping trollys around sainsburys!

I'm not sure what planet some of the Autocar journalists are on and their maths and scientific research is quite appalling at times.

And then we come to the big question of why do we want to reduce our carbon footprint which Matt obviously hasn't appeared to analyse past the papp propoganda.

If our Matt did the maths and science on climate science he'd realise we'd be off our trollys quite frankly to bother because man cannot change climate altering a gas that's 0.0038% of which man has almost no effect on with all his industrial omissions combined. Changing to electric vehicles is an act of futility even Lemming would find laughable.

lukemedway May 21, 2008 9:19 PM

Everyone knows we can't realistically change the way we live because there is no alternative out there at the moment. Nothing out there is even half as efficient as burning fossil fuels, not without destroying habitats, flooding large areas of land for turbines or throwing nuclear waste into the sea... I think a bit of CO2 is the less of all the evils to be honest!

So can we put a stop to all this tripe and put an end to green taxation, it's all just a bunch of hype based on false science to produce revenue for the government so they can waste it away on other failed policies! It's just one big joke and I'm not laughing.

kerrecoe June 5, 2008 1:03 PM

Spot on Luke- the fact that we are even having a debate about it is a shame. Man made climate change IS a scam and in time, this period of CO2 histrionics will be seen as nothing more than propaganda designed to increase taxation on bankrupt societies- and we will be seen as idiots for accepting it.

The only real reason to find alternatives to oil is to remove our dependency on oil producing nations.

All about Autocar

Newsfeeds

Subscribe to our news with our RSS feeds

Advertise

To advertise with Autocar contact us

Buy our magazines

Discover our titles at themagazineshop.com

Autocar latest issue - Autocar 26 Nov

NEW ISSUE OUT NOW

FAST, EASY & SECURE
SUBSCRIBE NOW>>